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From $0-20M With An Unforgettable Brand - Recording

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Chad Rubin, a marketing mastermind and CEO of Skubana and Think Crucial, will tell you how. Rubin started out on Wall Street, and then started selling vacuum parts from his parents' business.

How on earth did Chad Rubin get to where he is now?

Find out in this podcast, and tune into these other topics:

  • What’s stopping sellers from the results that they need to get to the next level?
  • Horror stories about Amazon restrictions and account shutdowns, and how to get out of them and prevent them from happening
  • Diversification tactics for marketplaces so you'll never get hurt by restrictions or account shutdowns
  • How to figure out where all of your buyers frequent so you can capture and convert them

Watch the replay right here or read the transcript below:

deliverr-podcast-play


Transcript

Chad Rubin [Intro]:

You need to make sure that you're solving a specific problem. You need to make sure you're scratching an itch that you have. The biggest reward comes from doing things that nobody else is doing. And that goes with this as well.

Celena Chong:
This is Celena Chong Chong, back at it again with multichannel millionaire. Today, we've got a superstar seller turned tech founder, Chad Rubin. Over 10 years ago, Rubin was laid off from his Wall Street job just two weeks after he proposed to his then girlfriend. But thanks for the hustle. He went from zero to 20 million in just seven years. He then co-founded Skubana and Think Crucial. And today I'm really excited that I'm going to pick his brain on a few things. How he succeeded growing his parents' vacuum cleaner business? How to build a brand that people actually care about? And then talk about his biggest mistakes.

Chad Rubin:
About a decade ago, I was laid off of Wall Street in the Great Recession. My parents owned a vacuum store while I was growing up, always struggling to sell the next vacuum. I don't know if you've been to a vacuum store recently. You unlikely have. And so I, yeah, so I helped them bring their store online and we were reselling, so reselling products in their store. We were embracing Amazon, embracing many other channels, and my father passes away. And then I decided to start Think Crucial. Initially it was called Crucial Vacuum. So we are making just vacuum replacement parts, direct to consumer selling, just like Warby Parker, cutting out the middleman. And then we started expanding into many other categories. So we now make air purifier filters, coffee filters, cannabis filters, you name it. We make it anything that's crucial in the home.

Celena Chong:
What's the first product that you put online?

Chad Rubin:
First product that we invested in was a vacuum filter. We manufacture replacement filters to fit the OEM filter. So we made a Hoover vacuum filter early on, and that product has been seriously commoditized in the past 10 years.

Celena Chong:
And how do you stay passionate about vacuums?

Chad Rubin:
Well, you don't, you're kinda take what you know about and then you form it into a passion. So initially, like I mentioned, we were Crucial Vacuum and then I was like, okay, I wanna make other things and I'm really into coffee. So combining like what you know with what you're passionate about. I think that there's a really like healthy mix there. We started making coffee filters, like for the Chemex or Aeropress. And that's where I have more passion. I'm more of a builder than anything else. So I think the passion is in like building and creating things and coming up with these new ideas that are fresh and watching them to success.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, that's really fascinating. And I think that is definitely a knowledge hole within sellers at Deliverr. Just being able to create something that's new and your coffee filters are actually washable and reusable. And that's something that coffee filters usually aren't. To be honest with you, I'm not a huge coffee drinker myself, but I'm wondering how do you find such a point of differentiation in a common product that people use every day?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, that's a great question. So initially we, the idea was, we were planting trees for every filter that was sold along with making them washable and reusable. And we started off in vacuum filters doing it and then coffee. And the idea was just like, why do you need to change something if you can just wash it and replace it, sort of stopping this consumer behavior of just replacing items. So how did we find the idea? I mean, we came across this idea just by, like I was thinking about like, where are there problems that I could be solving for? And once you have a problem you can solve for, I think that's imperative, right? You need to have a problem that you can solve for. And that's where essentially that'll lead to a big outcome for yourself.

Celena Chong:
Right, and kind of how much, like, can you ballpark, did you kind of invest into that specific feature?

Chad Rubin:
We're always doubling down and reinvesting back in the business. So even for the first couple of years at Think Crucial, I didn't take any money off the table. I didn't take a distribution. It was just taking money, reinvesting it back into the business to scale. And if you look at it today, we have roughly about 800 of our own branded products. That is a massive SKU assortment, and that's not including kits and bundles to increase our AOV. And also just like, if someone's buying a vacuum filter, they might buy a hose with it or a belt. So we're creating service kits and making all these different kits to increase our AOV and drive more profits to the bottom line.

Celena Chong:
Right, so you took vacuum cleaners and then you expanded into over how many different SKUs, would you say for whole home replacement parts in general?

Chad Rubin:
We have 800 now.

Celena Chong:
800, so let's go back to the very beginning with vacuums. You started there, you started producing vacuum filters. So what was your expansion strategy? If you were to go back to the very beginning.

Chad Rubin:
In terms of just like marketplaces or SKUs or all of the above?

Celena Chong:
Let's start with SKUs.

Chad Rubin:
Expansion strategy was thinking back to those days, Amazon was really the wild wild West. So there were a lot less sellers. So right now today there's about 5 million Amazon sellers. And so the competition was a lot less, and I can see the demand that's being leveraged on Amazon and see where there's inefficiencies of the listings themselves in the pricing, in the quality of the product. And we're able to capitalize on that really early on. So that was our initial approach was okay, this is a hot selling vacuum. Let's make the replacement filter to fit that hot selling vacuum. All right, what's the next best selling vacuum on Amazon? Let's make that filter and let's cut the price in half or more than half.

Celena Chong:
What was your marketplace strategy? So what, let's start with this, what marketplace or sales channel did you start on?

Chad Rubin:
So initially when I built site for my parents we were using Volusion, which is now bankrupt. We also embraced eBay and Amazon. Those are the three channels that we embraced early on.

Celena Chong:
So what was your expansion strategy in terms of marketplaces?

Chad Rubin:
Marketplaces for me, and I say this often, I think it's really, really important is I go after where people are spending time. And I look at e-commerce like playing monopoly. So you wanna be on every piece of the board to win. You wanna be on Park app, you wanna own the utilities. And so like if Amazon is driving product eyeballs, but then people are still leveraging Google and people are still on eBay and then eBay then can post ads to Google. I just want to take as much market share space or eyeball space as possible so I can capture as much market share as possible. And so that was really the strategy is to be everywhere I possibly can. So you fast forward to today, we're on about 10 different channels across the internet.

Celena Chong:
Okay, so 10 different sales channels, like Amazon, eBay, those kinds of channels.

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, Wayfair, Overstock, Walmart, Home Depot, Groupon, et cetera.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, that's very interesting that you kind of compare this to monopoly games. So you used to work on Wall Street and you mentioned that. So that's a very, very different line of work. Did that in any way, prep you for e-commerce. I mean, just seeing the volatility of the stock market, do you think that you treated your business like a stock?

Chad Rubin:
So I, okay. That's a great question. Number one is I covered internet starts on Wall Street, so I was covering Amazon, til I saw that in a recession, in the great recession, 2009, Amazon was a great place to put your money. In fact, people started doubling down on Amazon because of it's convenience and because of the price. Fast forward, then I started modeling out my business and forecasting and demand planning using a lot of the spreadsheet skills that I acquired working on the Street. And then lastly, as I was in equity research. So I would advise institutional investors to buy, sell, or short various stocks. I would never advise somebody to put all their eggs in one basket. And I initially actually did that with my own business where I had my ads all on Amazon. A lot of the ads were in Amazon's basket until we started to diversify away from it. So we view Amazon as not a business, but we view Amazon as just merely a channel.

Celena Chong:
And how long have you been selling now? You said close to a decade?

Chad Rubin:
It's been over a decade, as you can tell by the hair loss on top. It's definitely been a wild adventure and certainly a very fruitful one, but yeah, it's been a really long time over a decade. And obviously I started out of that pain of- really it's all about solving problems out of that pain. I was on the initial committee that formed the Prosper Show, which is an Amazon sellers conference, which was acquired, and then we also Skubana, which is an operations platform, as you've mentioned. Out of the pain of trying to find something as a merchant brand myself, I couldn't find something out there that existed. So I went ahead and started building it with my business partner, D.J.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, that's a really long time, just over a decade. So I'm sure you've made some mistakes along the way. Can you tell me some stories or just provide me some examples of mistakes that you've made and you wish you could kind of go back and erase that?

Chad Rubin:
Gosh, so many mistakes. Every day, I wake up a little smarter and it's all about surrounding yourself with the right people. But in terms of selling, we, gosh, a lot of things, let me look. I started definitely running two businesses was challenging initially, tried to figure that out, right? Most people have a hard time starting out, just running one business. God bless Jack Dorsey for running two as well. So I think also, perhaps not innovating as fast as we possibly can, like sitting on certain products that, you know, if you look at someone like Apple, Apple came out with the first smartphone, and they had to keep on moving to the five, the six, the seven, maybe they didn't do a seven, maybe did an eight or nine, and they slipped around the numbers, but regardless they had to keep on innovating, keep on moving because somebody was always on their tail. And so, and there's always copycats around specifically as in the eCommerce world where there's a competitive mode is like really low on certain branded SKUs. So perhaps moving into competitive modes in a quicker timeframe probably would have been the first piece of advice that I would, I wish I knew than what I know now.

Celena Chong:
Were there any inefficiencies within the first iteration of your business that you had to cut out? So I read in a previous interview that you did, that you just kind of went straight to the factories in China, kind of discussed with people there. How do you decide when to cut the middleman out and take more of that profit for yourself?

Chad Rubin:
Well, so I started seeing Bonobos or Warby Parker doing it. And I was like, oh, this makes sense. Like there needs to be more of a one-to-one connection with the consumer. And so I think when you start seeing like when you started exploring, okay, here's a problem that needs to be solved. So you start reading reviews or you start hearing or walking through your daily life and finding those problems. So that's like really the starting point. And then as you start to explore and find factories and sourcing factories and products, you start figuring out, wait a minute, this cost how much? It costs 10 cents, and they're selling it for $80, that's crazy. So the markups are incredibly high, and that's where I think you can, that's where it's like, you have that cha-ching moment, and you're like, okay, there's really an opportunity here. Now, other inefficiencies, by the way, those are just like selling inefficiencies where you know that there's an address market they can capture. I would say the step is the inefficiencies of running. When I first started, I had my own warehouse, and I was, I had first of all, I had no business running my own warehouse. I never had done it before. And managing the warehouse and creating picking locations and all the things that went along with it. I mean, we had huge high turnover located in New York, which is pretty expensive to find warehouse employees that wanna work and we didn't do any background checks on top of it. So we early on made a decision before any 3PL was created to outsource our warehouse. And that was non-consensus at the time and super risky. And it turned out to be one of the best decisions I made.

Celena Chong:
How did you kind of come about that decision to kind of take on that feat of having your own warehouse?

Chad Rubin:
Oh, to take it on? Well, I had no choice. So business started to explode and I was working out of my apartment on the upper West side in New York City, started to overfill out of there, boxes were piling up, and my girlfriend now my wife at the time was like, "Dude, you need to like find a space." So we found a storage space in Harlem and I started working out of there. There was no windows in this space, it was insane. And then I started growing out of that, and we moved into a natural warehouse in New Jersey in Little Ferry. And so we experienced those growing pains, but then like there was all these other growing pains like we couldn't manage inventory and stock, and I couldn't manage the employees and things were falling apart, and all these things were happening, the stress and the anxiety, I was like okay there needs to be a better way. And that's how we found our first 3PL.

Celena Chong:
Okay, let's discuss building a DTC brand in a typically unbranded market. So you're currently selling replacement parts of the home in general. Can you walk me through how you decided to build a brand around such a traditionally I guess unsexy market?

Chad Rubin:
I mean, let me think back. It all came like so quickly and happened. Like we came up with a name which was Crucial Vacuum. We came up with a logo and I found a freelancer to make the logo. I knew that I wanted to have our own website, not just be on Amazon. So we started developing our own website, and that took many iterations. And yeah, you're right, our category, isn't really sexy, even though, by the way, I think coffee filters or sometimes cannabis filters could be considered sexy, but a lot of times like the riches are in the niches or the non-sexy categories that nobody wants to touch. And that could be a big wealth generator if you embrace it. So I think that the secret now, or space in the filter replacement space is that it's the replacement product. So we're essentially letting the Hoovers of the world or the Dyson's of the world, do the marketing for the vacuums and going on QVC and doing all the hard work. And we're doing the dirty work, which is like, let's just make the replacement filters, which need to be replaced. They need to do it often. There's a lot of recurring revenue there and I think it's just a great market to capture.

Celena Chong:
And did you guys eventually start doing a subscription model?

Chad Rubin:
Yep, so we do subscription. We do Subscribe and Save on Amazon. We have Subscribe and Save on our own website. And I think to fast forward now though, that I was talking about like the idea of innovation and the idea of having a moat in e-commerce right now, like anybody right now can start a website. And that wasn't the case 10 years ago. Anybody right now can go on Alibaba and source a factory. That wasn't really the case 10 years ago. And so now the idea is that how do you develop something that, where there's a problem that needs to be solved but you're also like really innovating and developing something that nobody else has. And that becomes your competitive moat. Because first mover advantage, isn't an advantage anymore. There's a very short shelf life to that first mover advantage where there's copycats everywhere, especially in my space. Not my space to platform, my space, like our vertical, that we're in. There's so many copycats. And so that's really where we're focusing most of our time now. We're constantly innovating and moving into like we're manufacturing hoses and all these things that essentially have big capital expenditures associated with them so that we could have a moat.

Celena Chong:
So when you talk about like copycats popping up, can you tell me a specific story of you're coming out with a product, and then you see something popping up around six months later? What was that like? How did you come about that?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, so I always knew, so 10 years ago I was like, oh my God, this is such a great opportunity on Amazon. And I always knew that there, or I always had this, I was always like, looking back in the rear view mirror, being like, "Whoa, this person's gonna do this, or someone's gonna do this. Someone's gonna like catch onto this." And it took a lot longer than expected to be frank. And it wasn't until I think like they sort of, it's became public. Like even my mom knows about selling on Amazon now, like everybody knows about selling on Amazon, and that's actually where you're like mmmh maybe there's a different opportunity you wanna move into and anytime that happens. Like when everyone's crowding a space that's the greatest time to move out of the space. And that's why you're seeing right now, a lot of people selling their Amazon businesses. But I don't even know if that's specifically answering your question, but what was your question? Sorry, I digress.

Celena Chong:
I think my question was more so around, like copycats. Tell me a story about, you know you built something, you were really proud of it. And then six months later you saw something pop up on Amazon. How do you combat that? And can you even do anything about it?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, there's nothing really to do. You need to make sure you have a longterm strategy in place. So like short term strategies are quickly replaced with short term products on Amazon. And it comes down to who has the best image? Who has the best PPC spend? Who has, there's all these knockoffs that are created. And yes, that happens all the time. And so it just comes down to the longterm strategy, right? And like, the idea is that these copycats, they're able to learn from your mistakes, which is awesome, right? So you're paving the path. If you're the innovator and you have the first mover advantage, they're like, wait a minute. I can do this better. Look at these reviews or look at this image, or look at this title. I can do it one a better and I can put more money towards it. So you have to constantly be innovating. The problem with those copycats is that they actually don't have any future insight or vision into the future of where they wanna go, where they wanna be. They're just copying you. So they're always following your footsteps. And I think that's where we've been able to do really well at Think Crucial is we've been able to innovate really quickly and having a direction of where we wanna go.

Celena Chong:
So can you sort of just define copycats? Are you saying they're going to the manufacturers, they kinda slapping their own name and brand on it?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, yeah, that's precisely a copy. So it could be the set of matches that is on my desk right now. It could be someone saying, hey, I see these matches on Amazon. I can do a better, I can make it cheaper. I can create a better listing. I can drive more PPC results to it. So copycats, would just like copies or product and comes out the same identical one or something very similar to it. And even if you go to Amazon right now and you type in Allbirds shoes or Away luggage, or any of these brands, like everybody is experiencing this copycat phenomenon.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, and have at any point, were you also ever guilty of copying. Essentially?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, I mean, I think, what did they say the best-

Celena Chong:
Form of imitation? No, the best form of flattery is imitation. Think that's what it is.

Chad Rubin:

Yeah, so for sure, like, even the idea, like the inception of Crucial Vacuum, the idea of it was cutting out the middleman going direct to consumer and planting a tree for every one sold. That was, I mean, if you think about it, that was where Warby Parker had that mission very early on in the day, right? So I just took that and made it better, right. It's kind of like taking a car and throwing some really fly hydraulics on it. And some like gold plated hubcaps, like you can soup up the car and make it your own and modify it. And that's what we did. And by now in our space, like the filters or vacuum space or whatever, like everybody is now selling the same product, and the delta between my listing and somebody else's listing is very, very slight. And what happens then is that compression happens on the price, it drives down your margin and you're like, there's no more money in this anymore. Let's move to the next thing.

Celena Chong:
You've mentioned, you're a marketer, you're a brand builder, and you're a great storyteller as is evidenced by this podcast right now. So what's the importance of kind of going beyond like simply private label and building an actual brand that resonates with consumers?

Chad Rubin:
I mean, I don't know, I'm excited by building, right? So like, I would have never just trademarked a name and threw it up on Amazon and just existed in that realm of reality. So I also, had come in from Wall Street. I always thought about this idea of the exit, right? The idea that if you wanna build real value, and you wanna build real wealth, and you wanna build a sizable outcome, the way to do that is to be super diversified, but also have a brand that you can lean into to grow and scale. And also by the way, the other piece of it is like automation. Automating the business. So that's how we had actually started Skubana was thinking about how do we automate the business and think about how do we drive revenue, and letting our employees do higher impact, higher value activities. And there's value in that for buyers and for myself, for lifestyle, as well as automation capabilities, along with the exit multiple at the end of the day, all of those things are factored in to drive a higher multiple.

Celena Chong:
So what are the negative aspects, any drawbacks about building a brand can not be used against you as well?

Chad Rubin:
Drawbacks of building a brand? I don't have it. I think it's harder, right? It's harder to build a brand, like it's easy. It's easy to just go into it and start doing FBA, right? You just get your products into Amazon, you throw some ads on it, you buy some inventory. Hopefully you're not buying garlic pressers or toilet paper holders. And so I think that's the easy route. And I think there's value that could be created there, but I think there's a ton of risk. And I think the harder thing is like, how do you build a brand off of Amazon and create a different kind of relationship with your customer?

Celena Chong:
And what have you. So I'm saying negative as in like, what if you somehow get a bad rep? People started associating that with your brand. What do people kind of do about that then?

Chad Rubin:
Like an example would be Uber and Travis. Is that something like that, like that kind of relationship?

Celena Chong:
Perhaps, or maybe you just start getting a ton of negative reviews about your coffee filters. They're like, oh, I try to reuse it, and it didn't really work the second time.

Chad Rubin:
Well, actually the interesting thing, is that people go to Amazon for reviews. So you'll know your reviews right away. And I think that's one of the problems DTC is that, how do you trust when you're on Instagram and you're finding a really cool, I don't know, toy for your child. People are like, oh, that's a really cool video. I wanna buy it. And a lot of times they don't even look at reviews. Sometimes they go to Amazon, it's not on Amazon. And I think that there's probably an opportunity there to solve for, with reviews as it relates to like social discovery. But I think the reviews actually come more, they're more widespread and more flagrant on Amazon than if you're actually building off your own site. Amazon has like this review engine. People already have a log in, they're accustomed to leaving reviews on Amazon.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, and how about like fake reviews? Like, do you think that that is kind of really crowding the Amazon space right now? Just kinda wanting to get your thoughts on that.

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, I think fake reviews are everywhere. I mean, Amazon relies on people to trust their platform for the right reviews. I think most people still can't tell the difference between a fake review or a real review. They see the number of reviews, they see the content of the reviews, and then they make the decision based on that, unless it's a really expensive product. So I think people still trust Amazon's review, even though that there's tons of fake reviews on there and people gaming the system.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, so what are the out of the box marketing tactics, what are the ones that you're employing right now for Think Crucial?

Chad Rubin:
For Think Crucial, let's do a fun one that's top of mind. So we started making vacuum bags, filters, coffee filters, you name it. During the whole pandemic, we started selling a crap ton of vacuum filter bag media. And I was like, wait, this is so interesting. Isn't this the same melt-blown media that face masks are made out of. So what we did was we decided to make a donation. So I made a donation to a hospital nearby, and it caught some attention online. And somebody reached out to me, that's making masks in LA right now, and a really popular company called Hedley Bennett. They make aprons and they make masks. They literally pivoted their entire factory to start making face masks, really cool masks, by the way. And so we got connected and they're like, "Hey, do you wanna have a joint venture here?" And so we essentially just started working with them to- So it's a whole new business segment for them and for us for face mask filters. So all of their face masks have a pocket and they drive business to our site for the filter masks media. So I think that's really cool collaboration that a lot of e-commerce merchants aren't doing today, which is how do you find adjacent verticals and categories that you can collaborate with and go to market with, so it's a win-win for both of you. Where you're both going after the same demographic. You're both have a great product and you can create that win-win in this partnership together.

Celena Chong:
That's fascinating. So I didn't know that's, you said it's the same kind of material, you can kind of repurpose like a vacuum sort of filter back in bag with the face mask?

Chad Rubin:
To be very, very clear. It's a HEPA filter bag media, it's a bag. So some vacuum filters have materials that you wouldn't wanna breathe in, right? But the vacuum filter bag media the HEPA media that we have has nothing in it that would be problematic at all. It's the same exact filter media that these KN95 masks are made out of. This melt-blown polly media. Anyway, so we have a whole FAQ on it like, we have a whole FAQ on it, but it was really fascinating what happened. And we started partnering with other companies that started discovering us. And this has just become a whole new- I mean, this has really driven a ton of success. Now we would have never been able to do this if we didn't have our own website, if I didn't make that donation. So there's this butterfly effect that happened just upon just having good karma, right. Reciprocity, I always believe in like reciprocity, but like my intention was like, hey, lemme get this to the people on the ground floor doing really hard work right now on the front lines of this pandemic. And it just had a really nice impact on our business.

Celena Chong:
That's awesome. And so you also sell, I know that I read an interview somewhere where you mentioned that you sell to Amazon as a vendor. So you were doing 1P are you doing this currently as well?

Chad Rubin:
So we've been hybrid for a really long time doing 1P, 3P. Initially I was like super excited, 'cause like we had a category manager managing our account and Amazon started to outsource that a lot more. I think they couldn't handle all the 1P brands and merchants. So essentially I look at 1P, 3P, I looked at 1P almost like an insurance policy. So like God forbid anything were to happen. We have contacts there. We still can sell to Amazon versus selling on Amazon because Amazon can make decisions overnight that impact you, and with no recourse.

Celena Chong:
I'm kind of interested in this entire process. So you have to sell at wholesale pricing. That's automatically a decrease in margins, and you just don't have as much control over the customer experience, which as a brand marketer and someone who's really passionate about that doesn't really seem in line. So why'd you kind of go that route, and why are you still going that route, right now?

Chad Rubin:
Well, so I initially went the route to hedge. It's really an insurance policy, but I do actually believe in the power of the 3P marketplace, as a seller, you get so much more control as you just mentioned. So you'd have to control your price. You get to have. So right now, if you're selling to Amazon, they control your price and they can constantly lower the price on you, et cetera. And you can quickly react to competitors on the 3P side with the click of a button by just changing your price, as you see other and being dynamic in the marketplace. So that's a huge, and also get to create your own, create a relationship with the customer. One-to-one relation with the customer. You get a whole lot more data from Amazon, 3P side of things. So I'm a huge believer in the marketplace. I wanna create opportunity for us just in case God forbid, anything happens.

Celena Chong:
Right, and speaking of things that happen overnight, you talked about previously how you've had bumps with Amazon too, and you were in one of your interviews I think you said you were suspended the day after Christmas. So your account was suspended. You updated your credit card, something happened.

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

Celena Chong:
Can you kind of explain that situation? 'Cause I think that's kind of insane, especially the day after Christmas. What did you kind of go through?

Chad Rubin:
Well, so by the way, I've been suspended a lot of times on Amazon. I mean over the 10 years, it could have been that we oversold a product. We couldn't fulfill on our promise. Our 3PL had an issue and they couldn't fulfill things. And so this time around the most recent example, which was a couple of years ago, we changed our credit cards the day after Christmas, the credit card expired. So we just updated our credit card. I had like, I didn't know what the consequences of this was going to be, but suddenly our entire account got shutdown. Like it was, it came as a complete shock on Amazon, but they have 50% of e-commerce market share right now. They're near monopoly. They're still a big, big driver, even though we're diversified, there's still a big driver of our business. And so we had to create a appeal, write a plan of action and appeal the suspension. And we still were with no response, nothing, Amazon sort of like a black box. So at some point you'd have to say like F this, and I'm gonna do something that nobody does, which was literally, I went on LinkedIn and I started just messaging all the people in the specific department that could possibly help with like personalized messages, not like a spray and pray model, right. This is a personalized message. That's sharing with them, what we experienced, what happened, and like, if at all, they can possibly help us overcome this issue, and-

Celena Chong:
You're messaging people at Amazon?

Chad Rubin:
Yes, correct. Like that the biggest reward comes from doing things that nobody else is doing. And that goes with this as well. And so a few people wrote back at Amazon, 10 were like, "Hey, I'll look into this. Hey, I'll flag it." And then the next person was like, I got this. I don't want you to be experiencing this. You're absolutely right. Let me fix this right away. And that was after maybe a week or so, but it was like so much inner turmoil, right? My brain is spinning. Like what can I do? And we found our way out of it, crazy times, crazy times. And like, but I can imagine this happens with a lot of other people where they're really dependent on Amazon. They've invested millions of dollars of inventory and this happens every second, somebody is being in fact right, now someone's being suspended.

Celena Chong:
How often? So I guess my next question is, it was going to be, due see this often? Which is probably going to be yes. But how often do you see them being suspended for maybe they grow kind of unchecked reasons. And have you heard kind of any crazy stories about that?

Chad Rubin:
I've heard lots of crazy stories. I get emails all the time. 'Cause we've posted at Skubana, and we posted a blog, and the suspension and like the play-by-play. So like, so many people are reaching out to me around it. But yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'd necessarily have any advice outside of like, you gotta take matters into your own hands, develop a really good plan of action of how you're going to respond to the suspension. Be super honest, detail it. I sometimes we escalated to Jeff Bezos and I also obviously went on LinkedIn and started doing a lot of messaging myself.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, and I guess like what kind of mistakes do you see your clients at Skubana make on Amazon in general? Like what's stopping people from getting the results that they need to get to the next level.

Chad Rubin:
In terms of like just being suspended or just in general and Amazon?

Celena Chong:
Just in general.

Chad Rubin:
I think it comes down to both. I think the first piece is like making sure you're picking the right vertical, then like, as people are making, like if you type in toilet paper holder into Amazon, there's like over 100, 000 items that come up, and you need to make sure that you're not just another me too offering on Amazon. So like this whole copycat thing is like super real. And then Amazon can, by the way, algorithmically readjust you based on how you're not FBAing your product, or how you're out of stock and you're no longer prime eligible. So those are mistakes in themselves. But then from a category mistake or even a mistake, like putting, being like, hey, this is a cash cow. I'm gonna ride this out forever. And that's never the case. Like things change, the marketplace is dynamic. That's what makes it the marketplace. And you need to always be on to the next innovative item or else you're gonna die. You can't just stay stagnant.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, you have to constantly kind of shape your strategy and keep changing.

Chad Rubin:
I was just gonna say the last thing is PPC. I think that's really important. Like those that are first generation sellers like myself, we've been doing hand to hand combat, driving stuff organically for such a long time, or again driving results in revenue organically, whether it's on Amazon or off Amazon, but never had to do this pay-to-play model that Amazon utilizes now, which is PPC. And I think that's problematic for a lot of merchants that are aren't used to that like they weren't used to spending and figuring out what your return on ad spend is and how much, how am I gonna structure my PPC spend across all my products. If you have 800 products, and how are you gonna create those campaigns on a per product basis are gonna do on a category basis. So there's so much needs to happen that how the sausage was made at those times in this past 10 years, isn't how the sausage is made is today. And you need to innovate and change, and sellers need to now be advertisers as well. And that adds a layer of complexity that I think most aren't used to.

Celena Chong:
Right, there, and plus with a multichannel play, people are selling on big channels like Walmart and eBay, Wish, also through Shopify, and that's like covering those ground, like those bases doesn't seem to be enough anymore. Like you said, you sell on like 10 sales channels now. How do you kind of learn the differences and the specificities of each sales channel in terms of organically ranking, in terms of you know what is successful on Amazon isn't necessarily successful on Walmart? So how do you kind of learn about that? Or with all of this information, do you just start outsourcing that kind of knowledge?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, so I think that's a really good point is like what drives great results on Amazon with A plus content and enrich brand content. You're looking for the crappiest content, F plus content on eBay, and eBay is using there's titles more for ranking than Amazon is. And Amazon is looking for buyer frequency and buyer signals and add to cart and checkout and conversions. So I think it just happens to be like learning. I think number one is like seeing, being on the ground floor, creating these listings, seeing what's working, I think it's also talking to other individuals like surround yourself by really smart people who have been there done that is also helpful. So whether it's masterminding with them, just reaching out, being like, hey, I heard you on a podcast. I wanna talk. I think building that muscle of talking to other people is super important, and like your community that you're in like at Skubana we actually have our own Slack community called Run D to C, which by the way, if you email me a Chad is Skubana, I'm happy to bring you into the fold. But like right now, more than ever with, with the pandemic, you need to create community and lean on each other to help each other, and that's what we're trying to create.

Celena Chong:
What other suggestions do you kind of have for people to learn these like very nuanced things about other marketplaces that isn't necessarily present right away and like YouTube or Google search?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, I think there's, there's a lot of quote unquote gurus out there. Who've like probably couldn't make it as those who can't do teach those who can't teach inspect. I think there's a lot of those that are out there today specifically in the econ world. So you have to be really careful of who you're learning from, but I would actually just go and do it, right. Like go and like create a listing, see how it works. Look at the data behind it and analyze it, and then come to your own conclusion. I don't know, I think that's a great way. And then like, yeah, okay, putting yourself out there, joining communities, watching webinars, being in the chat, seeing who's smart and who's coming up with interesting opinions to like befriend those individuals. I think that's a great strategy.

Celena Chong:
Right, and definitely sounds like a lot of work. So you're a marketer. You kind of do, you excel at that front. So at what point do you outsource other arms of your company, of your business to other people?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, it's all about, I think you have to wear the hat and then give the job away. And that happens sometimes on a weekly basis, sometimes on a monthly basis, but you need to do it and then give it away. Or if you have the budget right, go and find someone who has the core competency to do it and get it done yourself. And so I guess you can look at this in a matrix style way, which is like, what's gonna have the highest impact where I should be spending my time, and like having a bucket list and then having an effort list. Right, a list of like the thing that you absolutely don't wanna do, or you don't like doing that. You know, that you're not passionate about it, you're not good at it. And this is definitely something that you can give to somebody else. For example, PPC, right. For pay-per-click on Amazon, like we have a huge budget, huge campaign is a huge time suck. And like, I can find somebody to do that far better than I can do it and spend my time and have a much bigger impact on the company. So I think so I think wearing the hat, finding what you're good at, finding what you hate at outsourcing it, I'm using Upwork pretty often. I'm also like using my own network of connections to come up with who we should be hiring, but yeah.

Celena Chong:
Do you also take advantage of that, The virtual assistant network as well? for admin-related tasks.

Chad Rubin:Yeah, for sure. I actually, so I started off using VA's in the Philippines. We still have those VA's internally, like they've grown at the company, and then, but I'm all about like picking, like finding, like you can find a generalist who can help you and then find, so you're hiring for specific generalist roles, and then hiring for the secret sauce or the secret weapon that that person holds like PPC is a specific function, but like answering email is more of a generalist function. And, but yeah, we give by the way at our, like some companies and give out like organic lunch or give out t-shirts to their staff, we give to our employees virtual assistants to help them essentially becomes leverage. So we'd give everyone a VA so they can essentially do what they're great at and get rid of some of these repetitive tasks with support functions at the company.

Celena Chong:
And which company gets the VA's?

Chad Rubin:
Well, I mean, as Skubana for example, like most of our employees have VAs or departments have VA's to help them out. At Crucial, we have a ton of VAs helping us with customer support and everything else to help us get that, I only have one employee, at Think Crucial right now, which is insane because we're a seven figure business, but we let technology likes Skubana automate it, and then we have VAs to outsource and get leverage for those tasks that we can't automate. And then I have one individual that's a COO Kristen. Who is literally driving strategy and driving the impact, doing higher value activities.

Celena Chong:
Wow, okay. So you have one full time employee at Think Crucial. And the rest is like virtual assistants. How many virtual assistants do you have at Think Crucial?

Chad Rubin:
I wanna say we have like five roughly.

Celena Chong:
Wow, so that kind of is like a secret sauce that I feel like a lot of people don't look into. And where do you scope these people out? Like how do you find them?

Chad Rubin:
So I use, so, I mean, you can hit me up in an email. I started off doing Upwork and now I use . But yeah, so we source those individuals through those areas.

Celena Chong:
Okay, so I'm gonna start diving to questions that people have submitted and want to ask you. So let's go through the steps that someone should take to start diversifying, because you've really stressed the importance of going multichannel. And right now I feel like it's being viewed as a mystifying sort of territory. So what is the diversity vacation tactic that you recommend people? Any specific order? How would they start the process?

Chad Rubin:
How they diversify the products or diversify their channels?

Celena Chong:
Diversify their channels off of Amazon.

Chad Rubin:
Okay, so one is, I would create your own website right away, and I would start testing that, shipping that immediately as possible and testing different channels. Now, if you close your eyes and you think, hmm, vacuum filters and coffee filters, Home Depot, that's a really good channel. Yeah, no, Sephora, probably not a good channel. So it depends on your category. You have to really think about your category and think about where you can capture more market share and more eyeballs. And maybe it's Instagram. Like people go to Instagram or Facebook to check out, right? They don't go in to be like, hey, I wanna replace my vacuum filter. I need to be reminded of the chores I need to do at my house. Like I need to do my laundry. They don't want that. What they do want is they wanna check out, and they wanna place to go where they can maybe see something different or unique. And so like, we don't advertise on Facebook or Instagram. It's never been a great channel for us. We have tried it. It's just never worked out, but certain categories are great at it. And so, especially right now, by the way where the cost per click is really down, it's a great opportunity to test and also get market share brand recognition as well, in these other channels outside of Amazon. So starting an Amazon. So starting on Amazon is great, ending is not great. And you need to find a different channel. And I would start by closing your eyes, thinking about where people are dwelling, where you think your demographic is spending their time and attention and go after it.

Celena Chong:
That's interesting. So coffee filters didn't do well on Instagram?

Chad Rubin:
So we made replacement filters, right, that are specific to your coffee unit. So like if you have a Chemex or Aeropress, or a specific espresso machine, it's so specific that you can't just be like, hey, we don't have every single coffee filter that's made on the market. We only have specific ones that are very niche, that there's an opportunity to make money on where the margins haven't been eroded. So to answer your question is like, no, our product category is very unique in that way. However, if I came up with my own coffee unit, that might be a great opportunity to capitalize on just the coffee enthusiast, that's on Instagram that wants a new brew method.

Celena Chong:
Do you think you'll ever expand your business into that area then?

Chad Rubin:
See the thing is, I think it's already done, right. I think it's been there done that. And so if it's been already created, unless I'm solving a problem, then I don't see as there's an opportunity. Unless I'm like, let just, lemme put out a great idea for someone to steal, which would be like nitro coffee. I freaking love nitro. You don't drink coffee, so you can't get excited about this. But like I love nitro coffee. There is not one nitro coffee maker prosumer on the market right now. So I need to go to Whole Foods and buy my Stumptown Nitro Cold Brew, if I want that nitro flavor. So to me, that's a problem. I'm experiencing it in real time. There's no software right now. And I believe that that's an opportunity to capture. Now, why don't I do it? I'm super busy running Skubana.

Celena Chong:
You're selling in a multitude of channels. Where, what are your future plans? Where do you wanna go next?

Chad Rubin:
Well, right now we're focusing on, we're already have the channel strategy down. I think that the next thing that we're working on is high margin, innovative products that nobody could replicate or compete with us on. That's where we've been spending most of our time, I would say the other place that we're spending time is like doing joint ventures. So like I mentioned earlier, finding other people, like we make these, we made filter media for masks, for pockets going out and finding people that are actually making the masks just like now everybody and their grandmother is making a mass right now. And they're not that efficient by the way, unless you actually have a filter media in it.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, so just finding very creative ways to kind of tap into other markets and basically?

Chad Rubin:
Yep, new products and like adjacent markets going with this collaboration strategy.

Celena Chong:
So you mentioned earlier. Find where just pretty much discern what the customer journey is, and where your buyers are lurking, where they find their products. Are there any, so are there any like specific tactics that you recommend? Like maybe even like buyer like surveys or anything to find out more about the customer, because marketing is all about defining the buyer persona and who your customer is, how do you kind of put their hat on and step in their shoes as someone who's behind a business behind, in the weeds all the time? Like, how do you do that?

Chad Rubin:
I mean, there's a ton of data that you can peruse from Google to understand the demographic and how like how people are finding you. What's your conversions, what's the bounce rate? What's their age? What browser are they using? Are they on a mobile, on a tablet, on a desktop? So you start there. And then by the way, there's apps on Shopify, for example, that you can leverage that, like you can pop up after the checkout asking them, be like, how did you hear about us? Or there's popups that you have on the landing page itself that are essentially asking specific questions to learn more about the customer. So I think those are opportunities where you can and live chat is great place to find out even more about the customer 'cause customers love that, like that interaction in real time.

Celena Chong:
Right, they love live chat. And for someone who has limited capital in this strapped for cash, how would you, I guess, what would that strategy be for you to kind of start your own business? Because you were probably once in that situation building Think Crucial, what metrics should they keep in mind? And should they, I guess, like what should their advertising strategy be?

Chad Rubin:
Well, I think that they should do a ton of research up front. So there's a lot of tools you can use for research and competitive intelligence tools. You need to make sure you're scratching an itch that you have. I'd go back to this idea of like solving a problem. You need to make sure that you're solving a specific problem. Now you can launch a website really quickly, a shopping cart, like Shopify launch it, do some, spend some limited spend. It could be a small little budget and just see how people are interacting with your site. See what the conversions have been, see what your returns are. Tim Ferriss wrote a book and it's still a classic "The 4-Hour Workweek," where he literally goes and test this really quickly. He even tested the title of his book with PPC ads. And that's how he came up with the title of his book. So I'm a huge believer and just like trying to ship super quick, doing the research up front and just learning from those mistakes before you invest a whole lot of money, sweat, which could inevitably create a lot of tears. You need to make sure you're putting in that investment upfront of time and effort before you go ahead and put money in.

Celena Chong:
Would you say that it's feasible to kind of work on something like this part time? Or should you kind of go hand, all in like you did?

Chad Rubin:
Luckily, by the way I did do a little moonlighting back in the day, where I would like have my day job on Wall Street and then work the night shift and like build something 'cause I was like super passionate about it. I got like so into building the website and doing all the HTML. So I started doing this all at the same time. So like things look like they appear to be an overnight success or is appear to happen quickly. Like these things take a long time to build and optimize on.

Celena Chong:
How long would you say that it pretty much took you to create the building blocks, I guess of your first business?

Chad Rubin:
It's never done, right. But yeah, it took, so I was laid off Friday the 13th of February, 2009, which was by the way it was two weeks after I proposed to my wife. I was like, oh, now's the best time, I'm set, I'm stable. I've got a good job, I'm gonna propose now. And two weeks after I got laid off. So super, and like it's never a good time, which is why I'm always like, just go do it. And it took so much time. Like there are so many learning mistakes and like, you just have to be ready for the rollercoaster and ready for the adventure 'cause there's gonna be a lot of pain, but there's also gonna be a lot of healing and a lot of adventure and excitement and fun. You just have to be ready for it. And yeah, it's great. And it's like, there's never, you're never done, right. Nobody's ever at least entrepreneurs that I know are never done. There's like the business that you have at the time and there's the business that you're in and there's the business that you're becoming and evolving into.

Celena Chong:
What would you say is the biggest reason that people don't want to get onto other channels or expand their business? Is it due to a lack of knowledge, lack of courage or what else do you usually see?

Chad Rubin:
Comfortability, it's easy, especially if you're doing really well, like happiness, they say happiness dulls the senses. And I think just getting into a rhythm and getting comfortable, that's really it. Like they're making money, it's a cash cow, that cash cow today may not be the cash cow of tomorrow. Like even with this whole pandemic that happened, I'm sure Deliverr had tremendous amount of success. Like FBA closed down. People couldn't ship their products to FBA. So they need to pivot to FBM. If you didn't actually have the foresight to think about having a 3PL or being diversified or having multiple different warehouses, you could not execute on your strategy. You were SOL, right? And so we committed, I Think Crucial to omnipresence and being everywhere really early on, not just every channel, right. But thinking about our SKU and the calories of our SKUs and thinking about our warehouse proportion, where they are in the United States, like we don't just have one warehouse, we have two. I wanna be able to actually ship to anywhere in the United States, within two days shipping without actually having to pay for two day shipping. And we now have a footprint that enables us to do that. So like, I think that people should be thinking about this way in advance and having this kind of a foresight to just like move the needle forward in their business, right. And you need to be doing things that others aren't willing to do to succeed.

Celena Chong:
So you want two-day delivery essentially come nationwide for Think Crucial. You're kind of aiming for that now.

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, we're aiming for that. But also by the way, not just when you actually create a footprint of multi warehouses, you get shorter lead time. So you'd have to bring market product to market quicker. Your shipping costs are that much cheaper and you Deliverr a better experience to the customer.

Celena Chong:
Why not use Deliverr

Chad Rubin:
We actually just started using Deliverr, actually, it's just another warehouse for us. Think Crucial are just started using a, we were just about to start getting products. I think we picked our top 10 listings. I think we're focusing on Walmart's channel specifically just to have a test again, I'm all about testing. So I can't say whether or not there's an algorithm change or prioritization on Walmart unless I actually use, like, I can hear about it. I can learn about it, but I wanna actually put my feet in the water and see if it's warm.

Celena Chong:
Right, dip your toes into the water, see if it works out for you, and then scale up from there. You are obviously like leveraging a bunch of different marketplaces, kind of controlling for headwinds that happen, like Amazon restrictions, stuff like that. In the future, just a future facing question. What changes do you foresee in the e-commerce ecosystem in the next year or next five years?

Chad Rubin:
That's really fascinating. I think that there is going to be, so like right now, what happens is there's friction in the process, and anytime there's friction or a problem, there's an opportunity. And so right now what's happening is that a lot of individuals are finding brands through Instagram and Facebook. And essentially what they're needing to do then is then transitioned from Instagram as discovery to a shopping cart and going through the checkout process. And I do believe that there's going to be a time when these marketplaces become the actual e-commerce platform because they already own the eyeballs. I look forward to seeing what happens and develops there with Instagram has something called shop, it's new, it's still being piloted, but I think that's something that's going to happen in the future. I mean, I could geek out on a lot of other things that are happening in the software space, but specifically as it relates to like brands and marketplaces specifically, I think that Instagram could create a really nice opportunity for itself to compete with Amazon if they do it correctly.

Celena Chong:
And how about Google?

Chad Rubin:
Google just waived all their fees for their Google checkout process. I think that's helpful to like gain more momentum, but they're kind of always just way behind where the puck is going. And so unless they make an acquisition, I think that they're going to be always in second or third.

Celena Chong:
So Instagram kind of carries all of that potential right now because it is a massive point of discovery. You're saying for a lot of potential buyers, and then it's just a really good opportunity to try to convert people kind of at that stage?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, I think like the point of inception or discoveries where you can really capitalize on the sale, and right now driving to a separate shopping store or shopping cart. Like Amazon used to drive people, they had some called Amazon PLAs product listing ads. And Amazon used to drive you off Amazon to the shopping cart and they stopped that. So I think Instagram has an opportunity to do it. I think Facebook there's some Facebook fatigue happening, but I think they can do it. Pinterest has this opportunity as well, TikTok, I think that they're gonna either close down or get acquired right now, but they could have actually had this opportunity. And then you have someone like Shopify who now has all this mass information of brand data that they can leverage and maybe create their own marketplace as well. So I think that's where it's going is there has to be someone in some sort of aggregator that comes in that sort of, you go to Amazon, you go there to buy toilet paper or to buy paper towels, and you go to Instagram to check out and to learn and discover new products. Like, I don't know, in the last time I went on to Amazon to just like scroll and learn something new. So I think there's an opportunity there.

Celena Chong:
That's so interesting that you mentioned Pinterest. I remember using Pinterest in my like early middle school days. So it's a very kind of old platform and Casey Goss from Viral Launch, she also mentioned that too Pinterest as being a really, really good place to look next. So can you kind of describe like what the discovery process would be for a buyer on Pinterest and how that would, I guess what would that process look like, and integration with your marketplace?

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, so Pinterest, so let's just say that we are adding a new floor to my house and we're renovating the house. So my wife would go ahead and create a wall or I forget what they call it exactly. But essentially a board of all the items that she wants in the new living room that's being created, right? So she pins all these things. You click on the image and then that drives you off of Pinterest to the website or the blog that the image is from. But imagine if now Pinterest can say, hey, you pin this. You want this for your new house, buy it here, save 10%. So instead of driving the checkout elsewhere, you're just removing a bottleneck in the process, making it a lot less friction in the process to check out. So I think that's how it would look. And by the way, Pinterest has a really interesting demographic right there. Their demographic is mostly women from what I've read. And it's somewhere between like 20 to 45, roughly. And so if your pipe maybe vacuum filters may not be a good fit there, but maybe coffee filters should be a really good fit because they're iconic and you can take photos of them and cherish those moments. And so again, just thinking about what marketplace is gonna drive the highest amount of ROI for the product category and the products that you have is really important.

Celena Chong:
Cool, that's awesome. That you've thought about that. I feel like Pinterest is kind of coming back again. I actually used Pinterest to redecorate my room, so that's a very, it's kind of related back.

Chad Rubin:
And so you bought, but you bought those products not on Pinterest, correct?

Celena Chong:
Not on Pinterest, I bought it on Wayfair.

Chad Rubin:
All right, and did a link drive you to Wayfair? Is that how you discovered it?

Celena Chong:
I believe, yeah. I believe the link drove me back to Wayfair either that, or led me to a bloggers website where she mentioned that she bought on Wayfair and that's how I discovered the product. So final words of wisdom. Do you have any for us, any closing words?

Chad Rubin:
I think this is a really awesome podcast. You did a great job on asking all the right questions, pulling it all out of me. I think we've covered it. I think if we're talking about just like people starting out or people diversifying, I think you just have to get really passionate like your business, especially in the early days has to become an extension of you. And you're gonna need more than just like the will to just like, make a lot of money to survive. You're going to need to have other things that are driving your motivation. And I think that's for me in the early days, like when I was working in burning the midnight fuel, my drive was, yeah, I want succeed, but like, hey, this is really fun. And this is awesome to build something new, and it just like, I should have been studying for the CFA exam, and instead I was like learning how to adjust the website template. It was a really fun time.

Celena Chong:
Yeah, and like, I guess like, do you kind of mind giving us some of like your resources? You can like email them over to me, but like books you've read, things you find inspiring just to-

Chad Rubin:
Yeah, so lightening round here, let's see. "Shoe Dog" grade book, "Atomic Habits," by James Clear, amazing book. Top one of 2019 for me, I just got done with the "Messy Middle" Scott Belsky who essentially started, what did he start? He's a software entrepreneur. He sold his business, Behance, that's it Behance. And so those are some books, podcasts. I don't know, I mean, I'm really enjoying Noah Kagan's podcasts. I think it's a fun one to listen to. It gives me a lot of inspiration. I always learn something new. I really liked his interview questions, has nothing to do with e-commerce really, it's just a something I like to listen to. And so those are books and like just literally joining communities and groups. Right. Learning from a lot of people, picking their brain, sending them like Uber lunch, especially in these times to just have, be like, hey, I'll pay for lunch. I'll send it to you, if I can get 15 minutes of your time. I think those are win-wins for everybody. And you'd make a really nice acquaintance along the way. I also wrote a book by the way, called "Cheaper Easier Direct." So if you are just starting out at a really good book to tap into, of course, it's on Amazon. And then lastly, email me if you have any questions chad@skubana, if you ever wanted to have a jam sash, that's where you can reach me that's my personal contact information.

Celena Chong:
All right, well, thank you so much, Chad, for joining me today, lot of really great insights, a lot of great resources. I'm sure a lot of people could really take action from this podcast.

Chad Rubin:
Thank you Celena Chong, I appreciate it.

Celena Chong:
All right guys, that's all for today. Looks like we all need to take a page out of Chad Rubin's playbook and start treating your businesses like in monopoly game in the wild world of e-commerce. Today, you can activate inventory management platforms, Skubana with your Deliverr account, go to Deliverr.com/integrations/skubana, S-K-U-B-A-N-A. If you're interested in learning the latest tips and tricks and keep on how to become a successful online seller, dive into our blog to learn more. To do that, visit Deliverr.com/blog.

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